Held here entire — 108 passages across 12 chapters and 2 named voices, set down from the first word to the last.
- 0:00Introduction to Lord of the RingsThe hosts introduce the topic of Lord of the Rings, following up on a previous Star Wars discussion.
- 0:12Tolkien's Influences and ArchetypesThe discussion delves into Tolkien's potential inspirations and the archetypal nature of his characters.
- 2:00The Maiar: Gandalf and SauronGandalf and Sauron are revealed as demigods, with Gandalf resisting corruption while Sauron succumbs to pride.
- 17:50Tolkien's War ExperiencesThe hosts discuss how Tolkien's World War I experiences might have influenced the world-building of Middle-earth.
- 20:26Races as Psychological ArchetypesThe conversation explores the idea of the different races in Lord of the Rings representing human archetypes rather than direct racial groups.
- 30:20The Hero's Journey in LOTRThe hosts analyze how Lord of the Rings perfectly embodies Joseph Campbell's 'Hero's Journey' archetype.
- 37:00The Ring as a MetaphorThe discussion centers on the One Ring as a powerful metaphor for money, central banking, and corruption.
- 43:20The Balrog and Dwarven GreedThe Balrog's unearthing by the dwarves is explored as a consequence of unchecked greed and a potential allegory for ancient evils.
- 47:20Gandalf's RebirthGandalf's transformation from Grey to White is discussed as a symbol of rebirth and resurrection, echoing Christian themes.
- 50:00The Elves: Nature and WisdomThe elves are discussed in terms of their connection to nature, beauty, intellect, and their role as protectors of ancient culture.
- 55:00The Ents: Nature's DefendersThe Ents are characterized as hippies who are slow to act but fiercely defend nature against industrial destruction.
- 1:00:00The Legacy and Impact of LOTRThe enduring cultural impact and timeless appeal of Lord of the Rings are highlighted.
The Transcript
@malleusigOkay, perfect, just as I was looking for you.
@malleusigAlright, now I'm gonna accept the co-host invite, but if anything goes wrong, I'm I'm gonna have to ask you to bring me up again. Give me a sec.
@malleusigYou okay? Alright, 1 for 1 on the co-host acceptance. How you doing? How's everyone doing? So
Ian Malcolmfar, so good, and I feel it's only, it's, it's required, it's incumbent upon us to kick this off as follows.
Ian MalcolmAnd Rabbi, with that, we are going Going to kick things off, I figured we'd give a moment for people to hop into the space, and we did that. And we gotta give a little bit of tribute, and, there's gonna be a couple different segments that I'm gonna wanna play throughout, to kinda add to some of the ideologies that we're gonna be sharing here, and really quickly just to orient ourselves. so this is a follow-up space. To the one that we previously did on the idea of Star Wars and the theology, the religion, and the ethics that were behind, not the new Disneyfied version, but rather the stories of old under George Lucas. And so what we're gonna be going through here is going to be JRR Tolkien's masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings and its trilogy. we'll probably stay away from The Hobbit, and to keep it focused on the primary trilogy, although I'm sure there will be some o-overlap or callouts, to that other work. And what we're gonna do as we weave through this is gonna be, of course, some storytelling, some parallels between the world that was created by that brilliant man, We'll have some background information on who Tolkien was, who were some of the individuals in his social circles, how did that perhaps influence his view of the world, and in what's going to be a curious exercise, we'll also try to unpack who exactly are these characters, what did they represent, if anything? Like the light and the dark side of Lucas's trilogy, is there something that's being told here that's not about necessarily just ethics or morality, but is there also a story that's being told about the world around us? After all, it's worth revisiting, what years were these works written in? What was happening in the macroeconomic and the geopolitical fronts at that time? So we're gonna unpack a lot of these things. We'll talk about the characters, talk about the stories, the lands, and then we'll probably- We find ourselves discussing how some of these items from these stories find themselves in modernity, including, for example, the palantir What was that in that work, and how does it play into the world around us? And so we will be weaving a lot of these. I want to first and foremost thank the wonderful co-hosts with the most, is Miss Joanne, who is up here with us. She, like I say every time, the workhorse of X. She is the four workhorse woman of the, non-apocalypse. She's gonna help us avert that. And we might have some other friends come up and come through. I hope everybody feels comfortable Comfortable, request a mic, come up, make this a collaborative conversation. It's gonna be largely led by Mr. Rabbi Malleus. I wanna welcome him as not only the co-host, but the featured guest of the day here, and his ability to break down these stories, the arcs of the characters, and the significance thereof. It always creates not only thought-provoking conversations, but also a lot of laughter and a lot of love along the way. And so I view him not just as a heroic mind, but also a heroic person. And a good friend, and so I'm very humbled that he's here. I also want to shout out to Mr. Sat Chaser and Ann, who both came up here, Sat, another wonderful contributor to this community, to this movement, and I welcome anybody and everybody, whether you're listening presently or you might listen to the playback, feel free to inject any and every one of your comments, whether it's now or somewhere in the distant future, as we proceed down the path to Moldor, and feel free to use that purple pill if you don't feel comfortable coming up and requesting You know, Mike, please throw out any thoughts, suggestions, heckles, harassments. I welcome all of them. And so with that, Mr. Rabbi, as a way to maybe orient the audience, you know, we, we, we did the prior space on the Star Wars trilogy. I'm sure a lot of people in here, may be familiar with not only your work, but also with that conversation. But in the event there are any that aren't, if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself to kind of the audience here, maybe give a very quick
Ian MalcolmMore significant aspects of the prior space on the Star Wars trilogy, and then if you wouldn't mind maybe just outlining or bulleting a couple of the most critical pieces of today's conversation that you're excited for. and with that, I'll turn it over to you. All
@malleusigright, fantastic. And before I do that, I would like to, solemnize the occasion with a short reading from the great holy book of Twitter.
@malleusigIt began with the forging of the great slurs. Three letters were given to the homos, gayest of all beings, four to the jew lords, the great financiers and bankers of the mountain halls, and six, six letters were gifted to the race of blacks, who above all else, desire bicycles.
@malleusigOkay, I just wanted to- It was just so perfect for this thing. As I- Oh my gosh, oh my god. Full credit goes to Zachary Rule, Z-ZJ Rule, who wrote that originally, and it's just perfect. and I promise you, Rabbi, it'll
Ian Malcolmmake for a perfect AI video when Villette gets his hands on it. I, I can't wait for that one.
@malleusigOh, wait, maybe it was, holy shit. Wait, I'm seeing like so many people wrote this, so maybe we don't know who came up with it first. Oh no, I can, I can just
Ian Malcolmenvision Vilek, who does a lot of the AI videos, one of the funnier ones being the one with Max Nordau on the bicycle, and I can just envision he might incorporate that character along, along with some of the others into this. It, it almost, what you just did there almost reminded me of something out of South Park, who ironically, I, I suppose we might have to touch upon that at some point in this, but, even, even the, the Jews over at South Park created a parody of Lord
Ian MalcolmWay even into, Cartman's backyard. But, but back to you.
@malleusigYeah, that was actually one of the best episodes. It's like when they, when they... What was it? They, they find the porn tape and they have to return it. It is,
Ian Malcolmand it's, it's like little... I don't, I can't remember. It's, it's, Butters, I think it is, or, or Timmy, who is, who, who refers to the adult film tape as "my precious." it's right You know what I mean? And they're like, "We can't allow this to
@malleusigexist, we have to destroy it, it's too powerful."
@malleusigHaha, that was awesome. Oh, yeah. No, dude, the, the, the shit South Park got away with in the '90s, it's, it's amazing. You wouldn't- I wish we could do it today. I told- I wish we could do it today. And it wasn't that bad back then. So, but anyway, yeah, so for anyone that doesn't, know me, I guess, I, I do stuff on Twitter, like I just like talking about this kind of thing.
@malleusigAnd, so we did the, the Star Wars one last time, which is really good, and,
@malleusigI'm like the worst PR person for myself. I have no idea what to talk about. but, I, I like, yeah, it was, it was a good space. It was, it was a great space, and I'm looking forward to this one.
Ian MalcolmNo, I appreciate that. And, and speaking of, of references in South Park, I just looked up, for what it's worth, some of the most notable examples of animated or live televisions making reference of Lord of the Rings. number one is South Park: The Return of the Fellowship of the Rings of the Two Towers is the name of the episode. The Simpsons, Family Guy, Futurama, Dead Ringers, The Big Bang Theory, Gilmore Girls, New Girl, Stranger Things, Flight of the Conchords. And even friends. so just going to show the degree of, let's say, reverence and/or referenceability that this movie, this literature, and kind of these ideas carry over, it, it is something that appears to be timeless. And I, I bring that up because Rabbi, just like with the idea of Star Wars, I, I, I think that something in there inherently tapped into the, not only ideologies, but a lot of the lives of people In ways they couldn't necessarily comprehend, and I think we can look at some of the characters, what they prospectively represent, but the ideas of good and evil are so fundamental to the story, they're so obvious and overt. the only thing that I still can't quite understand is the idea that, Sauron and Sauron, that somehow, Gandalf didn't see that coming, that, that, that the guy whose name is literally just the main villain's name plus the word man, at no point was Gandalf like, "Oh, I- I think I might see what's going here. But nonetheless, very crystal clear. It's a Sauron man. Yeah, exactly. He, he might as well have been Evil Man. And it's, oh, wow, he turned on me, what a shock. but nonetheless, so this idea of, of the story, the, the fundamentals that are in it, probably best, I think, to start with the idea of the Fellowship of the Rings, especially given the title of the space, because I do think, and I, I, I did go back and I looked through some
Ian MalcolmI guess, "quote unquote," preparation, which, didn't require a lot of work 'cause, man, they are fun and interesting to watch. But this idea of even the fellowship, right? I think there's significance to the-- and, and we talk about diversity in lots of different ways in these spaces, but the diversity of characters that come together for a common purpose against the primary villain, right? Very relevant perhaps for the world that we live in, as are some of the, the, the fundamental concepts that there is perhaps the one ring to rule them all, the one thing to And what exactly is that? Is it an idea? Is it merely evil? Is it something that can be codified into a, a single, apparatus, whether that's militarily, whether that's technologically, et cetera? And, and so very curious for your thoughts on the Fellowship, the, the primary story, which if I'm not mistaken, ironically, despite being revered as one of the greatest films of all time, perhaps some might find it the least interesting of the trilogy just because While there's a lot of world building, there's not necessarily a whole lot that, that happens per se, at least until the end of the film. But kind of curious if you wanna walk through some of the major either themes, ideas, or characters that were introduced to in that first film and, some of the, the more relevant pieces that you might wanna start unpacking throughout the space.
@malleusigYeah, sure. So, I guess the first thing that I would, I would start with is, and this is one of the things you really doesn't get covered in the books until you get to the Silmarillion, but, so both Gandalf and Sauron aren't basically not, they're not humans, they're, they're basically kind of demigods. They're called Maiar, right? And so there's this very interesting dynamic that's immediately set up where
@malleusigyou look at- You look at like the way that, how can I put this? Because you, you get into the, into this, this situation where you're talking about how Earth corrupts even the highest spirits, right? The gods in, in, in his, in his cosmology never actually come down to Earth, right? So it's, they're out of, out of the picture entirely, but the closest thing to them, the Maiar? They decide to come down and start influencing and teaching humanity, and only one, only Gandalf is, is not corrupted, right? So he's very much kind of a Jesus figure.
@malleusigand then the other lines of, like, 'cause Sauron is corrupted, he's corrupted by pride, right? By his pride over his, his, his ability to, his ability to, you know, and magic and how much better he is than everyone else, this kind of thing. And you see an analogy there with, in the Quran, you see how basically they talk about,
@malleusigMuhammad talks about how the, even the angel, Gabriel, set it through him, but even the angels who came to Earth were corrupted, by their lives on Earth, and became lost essentially at one point. And the Quran talks about that. So even, so as a human, if you're able to navigate the world uncorrupted, you're doing better than even the angels.
@malleusigWhich is a very interesting thing, to read about. but, and then you can get, you have to get into the part where Tolkien supposedly was granted access to the Vatican Library before he wrote Lord of the Rings. And so there's this whole online theory about how basically it's not fiction It's actually, it's, it's a coded history of the human race. It's like a coded-- It's basically he, he took the history that he saw in the Vatican and rewrote it as fiction to get it passed,
@malleusigyou know, the people that are checking for that kind of thing. And so in a way, The Lord of the Rings now becomes, for Europeans, it becomes kind of our, you know, kind of like our Torah. In the sense that, in the sense that the Torah for Jewish people aren't, isn't, it's, well, one, it's, it's this incredibly, incredibly,
@malleusigfulfilling book to have, because it tells the story of your people and the history, and it grounds you not only to your history, but to every other Jewish person through that book, right? I can't overstate the psychological benefit of having a Torah, of having a book that everyone in your ethnic cultural group reads and everyone in ethnic cultural group subscribes to, because it, it binds all of you together and it gives you this unity, this solidarity that really isn't possible without the book. You see the same with Muslims.
@malleusigAnd we used to have the same thing with Christianity, but- The attacks on Christianity, the attacks on the book, have been so consistent, they've, they've basically managed to take away most of, most of people's belief in the book and most of our, subscription to it. Most of what-- Most people, most Christians look at the book and they don't really subscribe to it all these days. A lot of them are atheists or hedonists or, you know, they, they engage in, essentially,
@malleusigYeah, how can I put this? You know, they, they basically denigrate it, while at the same time just accepting everyone else's, you know, fervor for their own books, without criticism. I guess I'm kind of off on a, on a wild tangent here, but that's-- So in a way, Lord of the Rings is, is kind of like the European non-Christian Talmud. It's kind of like, a shared myth system. That young, nerdy, pimply-faced boys can all kind of get together, and myself is include, definitely included in that, all kind of get together and connect to each other through. And in that sense, it has real psychological value. I think the only other, the only book that has as much psychological value as, as Lord of the Rings would be Dune.
@malleusigand Dune doesn't have anywhere near the same kind of, readership or fan base. So, but yeah, no, that's kind of my initial take on that. what are you guys' thoughts?
Ian MalcolmYeah, no, and I'd also say for what it's worth, I, I feel like the, the world building in Lord of the Rings obviously goes above and beyond even that of Dune, and, and a lot of that, I think, has to do with, Tolkien and his fascination as a, a, an individual with language. and it's worth noting that this was a-- This individual was essentially
Ian Malcolmin his inner circles for his, his brilliance. and just as a couple interesting call-outs, not only, you know, in some of these high-level academic courses that he was taking, and, and teaching it in fact at one point, but befriended of all people, C.S. Lewis, which is considered one of the, I guess, most prominent and, and remarkable, literary friendships of all time, especially given some of the works that C.S. Lewis did. And then also, of course, Tolkien, fascinated with ling-language and- As kind of a prodigy and a, a brilliant individual, was fascinated with language so much so that he even created his own languages for these characters, right, that exist in this world. Yeah. He made-
@malleusigHe literally made, made languages for each of the races in the book. Like, that's a level of overkill that is, is absolutely insane. Huge respect to Tolkien. Absolutely.
Ian MalcolmAnd, and for what it's worth, before we maybe unpack more of the story itself, at, at, let's say the, the details of the, the, the pages themselves, right? The, the concept for this, I feel like it's something that we should unpack a little bit because it's worth noting, again, in the backstory of Tolkien, this is a person who fought through World War One, was involved in trench warfare, which, I think people today, especially those that are less,
Ian Malcolmless interested in history of yesterday, can't Comprehend the degree of, utter destruction and devastation that, that living through something like that would have, resulted in. And to think that that individual came out of that, having experienced firsthand kind of the horrors of war, seen all of the things playing out on the geopolitical landscape, with various nations at war with one another, various people perhaps and ideologies, at war with one another And I'm curious, Rabbi, for your thoughts just overall when it comes to this world that, that he built in this fantastical story, i-if you see any similarities or parallels, whether you're thinking of the Shire and what that might re-represent compared to Mordor, compared to all these other places that we're gonna kind of visit throughout the stories, and, and if he was painting a, a picture at fifty thousand feet that perhaps was more than just a, a piece of fantasy.
@malleusigOh, definitely. No, definitely. No, I mean, if you, you look at the races, the, there definitely seems to be not-- it doesn't seem to map onto races per se, but it seems to map onto, psychological archetypes or like, you know, person, person types. You have, you know, the humans, which are humans, which are like- Kind of like our way, it's like the way to anchor us into the world essentially. It's, it's, it's the characters that give us like stakes, because if there weren't no humans in the book, it would just be hobbits and elves and, you know, orcs fighting each other, and like we wouldn't care. We wouldn't have any reason to care at all, right? So we could have something to root for. But then you look at, you look at the other, other races, and they do seem to be kind of exaggerated, exaggerated Tendencies or stereotypes, right? So it's like, you have the hobbits, the hobbits really seem like,
@malleusigthey seem like people that are too civilized, like they're, they're so, they're almost feminized, right? Look at the hobbits, like they're like, they have eight meals a day or whatever it is, like they have three tea times, they never leave the Shire, they are They're constantly engaging in gossiping and backbiting and like personal politics inside the Shire. They're worried about, you know, who has a better family. They're, they're basically kind of like,
@malleusigalmost like, like, I can put this, it's almost like high school cliques, you know what I mean? Like high school girls basically. If high school girls was a race, it basically would be The Hobbits. And for me, this is kind of like the, the people that, you know- Don't, we really don't talk to one-timer because they're the ones that will just kind of go along with whatever is the main thing, right? The Hobbits, you get the feeling that if Sauron had won, they would be the ones that just kind of like, "Yeah, okay, fine, we'll just, I guess we'll worship Sauron now," and they would just kind of go with them. They're the forty percent that just go with whatever the current thing is, right? The Hobbits, you know, aside from Frodo
@malleusigWould definitely all have put in black squares on their Facebook profiles immediately as soon as it became a thing. They're basically like if NPCs were a race, I think, right? So that's, that's one. And then you have the orcs, obviously black people. and then you have, the- I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. I think, I think the orcs, orcs, it, I think Tolkien actually did kind of intend to-
@malleusighe did kind of intend to parody, not parody, he did kind of intend to create an archetype of the less developed cultures in the world, like the cultures that are still really just kind of like clawing their way out of the stone age. and that really transcends race, but definitely doesn't include a lot of Africa. Like, I'm not-- You're, you're not gonna gaslight me into thinking that it doesn't. Right. So, and especially when you look at the main theme of You know, what's happening with the orcs? Well, they're being weaponized by the wizard against the humans. Like, come on. Like, you-- like, Tolkien couldn't spell it out any, any cl- any clearer for you guys. Like, the wizards are literally raising and breeding and arming the orcs and then sending them again to fight against the humans to exterminate them.
@malleusigI really can't think of- any way that he could have laid this out any clearer without literally just saying it for real, right? Without making it a book about, you know, orcs stealing bicycles or something. Like he, he couldn't have made this shit any clearer, guys. yeah, and then you have
Ian Malcolmlike the re-re-re-re-retrò-versal take there, I'm sure, for the listeners. and, and for what it's worth Had a fun little game, while looking over this and was looking online for some of these comparisons, and one of the common ones, just to call out the two groups that, you just mentioned there, the hobbits often referenced to being kind of the, the byproduct of industrialism, ind-individuals essentially, they have a lot of claims that they were basically the, the pre-industrial English, in particular those that were outside of major cities, right? Just kind of living their lives, doing their things, independent of the world around them. And perhaps when there are conflicts and all these crazy, animosities taking place in the world, they're just kinda indifferent, doing their own thing in their peaceful little solitude, and, and something that you can, I suppose, critique because it lacks awareness, right? It's almost like, it's, it's almost like Adam and Eve in the garden, right? These people, they just, they're, they're-- It's not that they're ignorant, to it necessarily because they want to be ignorant, but rather just 'cause they have their own little carve out and the, the orcs obviously, to your point, Rabbi, comparisons can be made, very controversial in terms of tying it directly to a race. I just wanted to call this out because, according to Tolkien himself, the book is Christian in its, let's say mythology, in the sense that it, it, it's where he derived the spirit and the sense of right and wrong. He made many claims that it wasn't supposed to represent the, the races, I suppose, but you're right There, there. He would have to say that though. Well, that's the thing, he would have to say it, and, and that's why I suggest the idea that the book taps into perhaps something that is intuitive to all of us, right? People are welcome to come to whatever conclusions they want and find whatever other conclusions others may find offensive, and they're welcome to do that, but there are some, like you're saying, some pretty prominent little tie overs, and we could look at For example, crime and all kinds of other things, and maybe we could, we could justify drawing the certain conclusions that you just were bringing up. But, but it, it, I would be curious because Then we've got the wizards, right, that you talked about, this idea of them being gods. I'll be curious for your thoughts on who the wizards might represent, and I say that especially given the fact that if you look at the physiognomy of Gandalf versus that of Sauron, there are some pretty transparent differences between the two of them, and Christopher Lee, the actor who portrayed Sauron, has a clear prosthetic added to his face that is a rather distinct call, but at the same time Other people, other people would make references that perhaps the dwarves represent another group of people that we sometimes talk about frequently, and, we can discuss how they were in the mines of Moria, they dug far too deep because of their greed and their unwillingness to care for humanity more than for their own greed, is the comment loosely made by Gandalf. So who might the dwarves be? And then of course we have the elves, which I'll be very curious for some of your thoughts, as to the headline of the space, who they- May have been representing with that group of people.
@malleusigWell, see, this is, this is why I actually favor the, the theory that they don't represent races or groups like directly. They represent kind of like human archetypes, and the-- those archetypes will inevitably map onto, different races, right, in terms of stereotypes, but ag-- again, it doesn't directly do it, like, so like the There's a definite-- so the first thing you notice is the definite hierarchy, right? The definite hierarchy in terms of non-godlike beings, you know, you have, if you look at just the behavior and the ability to, you know, for cognition, you have orcs at the bottom, and then you have like what? Dwarves next. Then you have people. Then you have elves, right? 'Cause the elves are more, definitely more, more developed and advanced than humans are. And then you have like basically wizards, and then you have like, you know, I guess Sauron is kind of like the evil, like the evil,
@malleusigyou know, almost, he's almost like a demigod basically. He's like, he's like the, the false god that wants to usurp the place of the other gods and take over Earth, right? So that would be kind of the way that I would look at it. And then you have the You know the, what was it? the, the, the ra- the ra- wraiths, I guess? The ring ra- ring, ring wraiths.
Ian Malcolmthe ring, the ring wraiths, yeah. You know what I mean? The minions of, of Sauron, right?
@malleusigYeah.
Ian MalcolmAnd so you have this whole idea of
@malleusigSauron- Sauron doesn't go out and like try and attack like everyone directly. He did, you know, he did, and then he failed. Like Sauron basically the first time in, in the, in the, in the lore behind the book, he basically had a physical form and he was this big giant dude with an axe or whatever or a hammer, and he was going out and he was just like basically taking on the world kinetically, and he was fighting armies, and he had his own army.
@malleusigAnd then, he got defeated And he, I think he realized that you can't just go out and militarily take over the world, 'cause it's, it's always gonna fail. And so then he used his influence over other people and relied almost exclusively on that, and that's what brought him closest to taking over the world, right? That was like, that was like the main thing. And so that for me is a major theme, this idea of Infiltration and co-opting people while never actually showing your face is a far superior strategy for taking over control of large amounts of people, right? The whole idea of the, the evil that wants to take over
@malleusigBut never actually, no one ever speaks its name, it never comes out, never has a face, never shows itself, and for that reason, it's much harder to fight against, it's much harder to defend against, 'cause no one thinks it exists. So that's a huge thing. And again, I don't map that to the Jews, I think that, especially when you, when you talk about like Sauron being the all-seeing eye, now we're getting into-
@malleusigBasically what would be the organizational structure that I'm sure has a shit ton of Jews in it, but is something distinct from just Judaism for Jewry, right? It's something that transcends that and basically goes around and does things like using Satanism and human sacrifice and, blackmail Right? through its most willing and ready servants, yes, but, it's not the Jews per se. And so I, that's one of the things that I-- one of the things that I do think that represents.
@malleusigbut, I'm getting off topic, but- What was it? What was the first question? And should we go to Ann? Could you get her hand up?
Ian MalcolmYeah, no, no, we can. And, and, just real quick, it's, it's interesting because you were mentioning there, some of the different groups and how they, they might represent almost ideas or ideals, and just to read off a couple others, that, that are pretty prominently called out. The elves, often linked to either the Celts and/or those that we would think of essentially as either Finnish or, let's say Say Scandinavian, with a language that actually in the book itself was closely resembled to and largely inspired by, Finnish, which is very curious. and this idea of the love of nature that they obviously represent, but there's also the ideals of beauty, the concept of intellect, that they revere kind of the world around them, that there's a higher culture that they are essentially trying to protect as the rest of the world is, is going towards let's say the future of Sauron. So kind of a curious group there, we'll have to, to dive in. the dwarves, again, kind of often referenced to the Jews. what was curious is, Tolkien was even asked specifically about that comparison, to which he suggested that there is a, in fact, comparison that he's trying to make, although he curiously doesn't only, only talk about the idea that they have been sent off into the diaspora after the destruction of- Of their land, which is referenced in the book, very curious, but also their desire for jewels, for mining, and, and a lot of the-- what he called, it's very curious, 'cause he called it highbrow culture, which is strange because the presentation that I see of the dwarves is actually quite the inverse, right? It's very, very guttural is perhaps the way I'd describe it. the men, for what it's worth. the idea of Gondor, and Rohan, right? These are, are references, supposedly, or some people would suggest, to the Byzantine Empire and the fading of that empire towards the end of its time. Oh,
@malleusigthat's interesting.
Ian MalcolmYeah, some would also say the Greeks or the Romans, but this idea of the era of man is coming to an end, obviously a very prominent theme throughout the, the story. There's obviously some others that are in there, but before we go that kind of down those and, and pull that apart, really quickly, Rabbi, any thoughts there on that concept of the elves, their attachment to nature, to beauty? who, who might you suggest that is, is perhaps entwined to, or, like you said before, is that maybe a reference not to a race or a people, but rather a set of ideals? And then we'll go to Anne.
@malleusigThat's, yeah, I don't know. So remember, so Tolkien is writing everything from the viewpoint, from the European standpoint, right? So it's like these aren't, these aren't universals, they're basically all how Europeans see others. And so I always, I always kind of linked Asians with elves, right? That was always my, my explanation.
@malleusigI always, for some reason, connected the Japanese with elves. Anyone who, who's been to Japan and spent time with Japanese people can probably understand why I would say that. It's like they're, they're very elf-like people, they're in, in the best way, in the fa-- most fantastic way possible. They're also, what's interesting is, is the Japanese were very, very good fighters in a surprising way, right? The, the thing about the Japanese was, when they had their big coming out party after they had modernized, and they came out, they came out against Russia, everyone expected them to, to fail. They were like, "Yep, well the Japanese, like, there's little tiny country and there's like these short people, 'cause they were known for being short back then." And it's like, "What are they gonna do against Russia? It's like The floor with Russian, everyone's like, "What the fuck, right?" So, it's like,
@malleusigand, and so like, so for me, the elves kind of mapped onto the Japanese pretty well, but I could be, I could be completely wrong on that, I have no idea. but yeah, for me, they always, they kind of, embel-embel- they kind of embraces, no, what's, what's the word? Exemplified this archetype of the extremely highly, civilized, more civilized even than the Europeans,
@malleusigvery mentally active, very smart, very, very strong people in the mind, but also extremely Not, not vicious, but like, you know, you don't wanna fuck with them basically. Like that's, for me, that's, that's a really, that's what, what encapsulates them.
Ian MalcolmYeah. And, did you wanna jump in? And. Yeah.
@malleusigSure, yeah, thanks for the mic. I was going to mention the ants, which I think are a very significant part of the story. Oh, yeah, the ants. The hippies. You wanna provide your input on that? Yeah, they're the hippies. They're basically the answer, like the, the, like the college kids that smoke pot and just wanna like hang out.
Ian MalcolmWell, and, and for, it's worth, Rabbi, as, as another little call out, and, and curious if you remember, I, I can't recall the name of this group, but, there's also this kind of, they look like a wandering tribe that, it's almost perhaps, maybe an eastern group of people that come in with the Elephants, I think they call them, Rabbi, at the end of The Return of the, the King. Those are the ones. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, it's,
Ian MalcolmO, overt almost, because every piece of the costumes, the language, the behavior, even the people themselves, it's, it's one of those, you know, components where it's hard to suggest that there's not something, at least when Peter Jackson brought it to life, maybe it's less, overt in the books, but yeah, there's so many of these different groups, and it's one of the things I find so remarkable about the story is they, they did such a wonderful job with the world building. We've got all these distinct, distinct individuals and, and like, Anne was just saying there with the Ents, and what are they supposed to represent? The, the treebeard, right? Right.
Ian MalcolmI, I like your call there of, of the hippies. And actually, I mean, this is kinda jumping around a little bit, but I suppose why not? Because this entire concept, in the, the, the, the two towers, I can't help but notice that the Ents, the hippies, as you called them, essentially wanna stay They sit around, and it's kind of funny that you call them the hippies, because they speak very slowly. Yeah, yeah. And they don't really do much. And I think one of my favorite is, the, at the, I, I think it's the end of the first day of the trees deliberating what they're going to do, and it's all gone dark, the stars are above, and, Miriam and Pippin say, "Well, what have you decided?" And, and the tree responds, "He goes, we just finished saying good morning
Ian MalcolmNot really accomplishing much here. and I bring it up because ironically, though, it's perhaps the hippies, as you describe them, that the only thing that motivates them to go to war is the destruction of mother nature, and when they do, the thing that they go directly at isn't necessarily evil for the sake of evil, but rather it's almost like they go to war against industrialism, and I call that out because they end up even flooding Sauron's castle, his encampment, et cetera, and in the process, they destroy Destroy all of the equipment, all of the machinery that they have been using to basically convert the trees and mother nature into this military complex, if you will. So it's a, it's a very interesting kind of overt, little, visualization there if you want to talk about
@malleusigit. Yeah, I mean, it's, it was, it's very, like, basically what get, gets them really moving is them seeing trees getting cut down, right? They're like, they're like, everything is, everything is very- Everything is very abstract and cerebral until they like, wait, hold on a second, you're killing trees? We gonna need to fuck this guy up, right? And it's, it never really gets them going. They're also kind of, like in the Harry Potter books, for me, they're, they're kind of a parallel to the centaurs in the Forbidden Forest, right? 'Cause they really don't care about anything else outside of themselves. They just don't, they don't care, like, unless it affects them. And then they, they're like, they're like, "Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna activate, right?" And they're very, how can I put this? They're very,
@malleusigoh shit, what's the word? not ab-abstract, like they're, they're very- Passive. What's that? Passive? No, not passive. Like they're very- Inscrutable, I guess is the word, like, i- because in the centaurs and, and the, the, the ants, like, likewise, it's very difficult for people to figure out what's going on in their heads. They don't communicate, they don't communicate with others very well, right? And they're very kind of locked off for that reason, they're inaccessible. to outside, to non-ants for that reason, 'cause we don't really understand what they're doing. It takes, like you said, like the whole thing about them getting together and it takes them three hours to say good morning to each other, like they have their, definitely have their own way of doing things, and it's not really accessible to humans.
@malleusigYeah.
Ian MalcolmNo, very well stated. And, and so Rabbi, to, to come back to the, the idea of the fellowship, right? So and, and perhaps we can-- I know we talked about this in the last, space on, Lucas and his work, but this idea of, essentially the hero of a thousand faces in Joseph Campbell. I mean, obviously the overlap between the adventures of Luke Skywalker and that of Frodo, the, the parallels are striking, right? You've got this character who kind of is out, off on their own, you could say perhaps that they are somewhat insignificant, not, not in a way of mocking them, but their, their life is just pretty normal, right? There is little Frodo living in the Shire, there's this call to adventure which is kind of thrust upon him because of the, the ring getting passed to him via Bilbo, and, obviously- Gandalf recognizing what it is, and I mentioned Gandalf, of course, being the mage, right? He's the wise wizard, he's the teacher, just like Obi-Wan Kenobi to Luke, right? And so off they go on this adventure, and we'll, you know, kind of venture and meander through that, and we'll un-ultimately end up arriving right back at the beginning, in the, towards the end of this space, right? As we get towards the end and conclusion of the story. but it just, it's
Ian MalcolmJust like with Star Wars, it perfectly follows this progression, that Campbell would have, kind of described as the, the archetype of, of all these great adventure stories. I'm, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.
@malleusigYeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's the reason why, I mean, so there was, there wasn't Joseph Campbell around when, when Tolkien wrote it, but Tolkien basically, I think, he basically reconstructed, he, he constructed, the same theory that, that Campbell did. Forty, fifty years later, right? So he, 'cause he knew, he knew, it's obvious from the way they wrote it, he knew the importance of the hero's journey, he knew the importance of the arc,
@malleusigof the character arc, he knew what was psychologically gratifying to people to read. and that's all the same stuff that Campbell got into basically, because Campbell's whole, whole thesis was that the hero's journey is essentially, it's a, it's an immutable archetype. that's in-- probably hardwired inside the human brain.
@malleusigand what it is essentially is that every other animal, what he talked about was that every other animal has an instinct system. Which is the set of, the set of behaviors that don't need to be taught, they are simply hardwired into your DNA, and so you, you literally come out of the womb knowing how to do this stuff. Like, you know, deer learn how to walk within the first couple hours of their life, they can run around and follow the deer around.
@malleusigbaby chickens, baby chickens know to run back to their mother when they see the shape of a hawk flying overhead. and they don't need to be taught this. The-this works even if they've never seen a hawk in their entire life, and it works even if-- it works, it's so strong that even if you take a cardboard cutout in the shape of a hawk and you draw it over the chicken pen on a line,
@malleusigit will have the same effect. The sh-- the very shape of a hawk is enough, passing over them is enough to make them run back to their mother, and the kicker is When they do the same experiment, but they pull the hawk shape in reverse, it doesn't work, right? So it's not just the shape, it's, it's the movement of the shape, and all this is hardwired into baby chicks the minute they're born, or most likely previous even to that, right? So
@malleusigevery other animal has instincts We have instincts too, but they're, they're downplayed. We don't really talk about them as much. We don't really-- We don't like the idea that humans would be born with instincts, because that would raise a whole set of uncomfortable questions about free will and about- You know, you know, what are the differences? Again, what are the differences between groups of humans and their different instinct systems, right? Which could lead to a whole set of very, very uncomfortable conversations.
@malleusigand then, and then, you know, again, between the sexes, the sexes will have different instinct systems as well, obviously. And so you, we, we tend not to talk about that kind of thing. We tend to veer away from that conversation whenever it comes up. And but it's still a reality, right? It's still a real thing. And what happens with stories is stories, they kind of, they lock, they lock into that instinct system. Like the stories that really hit us, that really kind of like, you know, get us and stick around and have fans, you know, millions of fans around the world, the reason they do that, the reason they have that effect is because they link into this underlying- Excuse me, underlying psychological framework that it's in all humans,
@malleusigright, to varying degrees, but it's in all of us, and it's, it's part of basically what's kept our, our species alive for millions of years, you know, going back even back to the pre-human era, you know, when you don't have the ability to speak or, you know- formulate or, or invent complex tools, then this instinct system is basically what keeps you going,
@malleusigand it, it keeps you, it keeps you grounded in a world that is, was far more chaotic than the one we live in today, in many respects. so I guess that's my take on it.
Ian MalcolmNo, very, very well stated. And, and so, to, to, to throw out one more question, then we'll go down to Soap, who has his hand up. maybe I want to say Wise was before Soap, actually. Oh, perfect. We'll, we'll go to Shantay then. Thank, thank you for calling that out. so, and, and trying to, respect the order of, of man here, in these spaces, right? So
Ian MalcolmI, I, I love that. and so we'll them all, right? The whole point of this first piece of the saga is them discovering the ring. Okay, we've got this thing, it's really dangerous, we can think of it as the Death Star, it's the super weapon, it's the whatever. and the thing that's so curious about that weapon is, it seems like it simultaneously gives you nothing but lust for the ring, while it also, if you put it on, gives you some kind of powers which in the, let's say on the finger of Frodo, doesn't really result in him being able to do Become invisible, which I suppose is a power, but it's not like you can use that and destroy things in doing so.
Ian MalcolmAnd, and simultaneously that ring's calling out to everybody around him, and we've got one of the, the men, played by Sean Bean, who in so many movies, why does he have to die? Such a great character. and, and yet, so he calls out to him along with so many others, and it is Frodo who is chosen to take the ring so that he can then be the one to try and figure out how to get To Mordor, right? And everybody else agrees that he's the right person to do it. And so I'm, I'm kind of curious how you read that critical decision, what you think Tolkien was trying to suggest when he put it on the hands of the Hobbit, the person who perhaps was, I don't wanna say the bumpkin, but the innocent individual, rather than giving it to the, the, the wizard, and the mage, and, and we know that Gandalf specifically rejects it outright. He says, "I can't take that." Right. Right. Right. the, the primary of, of the heroes, with Aragorn of the men, he turns it down, declines it. The, one of the, the women who is, I, I guess of the trees, I, I can't remember if she was an elf, right? She passes the test, but says, "I can never put it on, 'cause if I did, it would do all kinds of things." So I'm curious how you read both of those things, both the idea that this ring gives you- All of this incredible power and yet seemingly just exacerbates the worst traits and characteristics of everybody, and why then it would be most appropriate for this, you know, it's, it, it's, it's almost like Frodo is a rabbit, right? Like he, he's not, he's not peaceful because he's righteous, he's peaceful because he can't really hurt anything.
@malleusigYeah, yeah. I mean, he, he, he basically is innocent, you know? He's, and that's why he's the only one that gets to hold it. But again, it, it Basically takes away all of his innocence, and he, he becomes so aged as a person, you know, by the end of the book. But, I mean, so first of all, with the ring, the first thing, what's the first thing we notice? It's made out of gold. So there's an obvious, you know, analogy you can draw right there, right? So the first thing that I think people would say is, it's like, well, it's money, right? So it represents money. Money basically,
@malleusigcan be used to corrupt Even, you know, even the rulers, even the, even the strongest of men, even the most, even what he-- people who consider themselves the most, inviolate or incorruptible are-- can be eventually be corrupted by, the right amount of money, right? And that's- That's one thing. it symbolizes, sorry, it symbolizes the, the modern banking system. So, okay, so that's, that's where I was gonna take it. I was gonna say that, so that's, that's a few steps out, but so the fir- so the first, I think, the naive analysis that it just represents money, but then, like, you just, who, who was that? Was it Uncensored, right?
@malleusigWho said that?
Ian MalcolmIt's, it was Unity. Unity 18. Unity.
@malleusigYou know, yeah. So, so basically, the next step then is, it's not just money, now we're getting into the idea that it's this organized system of money that goes in and corrupts. And so what's the analogy to that? Well, who do we see going in and basically using money to corrupt rulers? It's this, you know, this bank, this international banking system that you just called out, right? So
@malleusigAt this, what it does is, I mean, and Truchella walked us through this in a space one time, but basically the way it works is the, the bankers realized that, the first thing they realized was that it would, made a lot more sense to lend to kings because, than to regular people, because it was much larger sums, first of all, second of all, the
@malleusigThe, the amounts were guaranteed because if there wasn't ever-- there, there wasn't any difficulty in paying it back, they could simply tax their subjects to pay it back, right? So, the payback was guaranteed and it gave you leverage over the kings because they want-- now they want something from you and you can give it to them. And so you end up with a system where
@malleusigthe kings now have, they're getting something from the bankers, they're getting money, and the money can be used to fight wars against other kings and to get what the kings want, which is more land, more prestige, more notoriety, right? and they wanna take over the world. Every king wants to take over the world, right? And they're like, "Well, I, I'll make this alliance with the bankers to do that." But what it does is it essentially makes you their slave, because now you have to pay back the loan And if you lose your war,
@malleusigthen essentially they get their money anyway because they plunder you through the other king, right? and if, if you win your war, then they get what they want anyway because now, they get all their money back, and plus, plus the interest and now they control an even more powerful king. So it basically-- because the king will want to borrow money again in the future, and if he doesn't, if at any point the king ever decides to go against them, what'll they do? They will simply stop lending money to that king, and they will start lending money to the other kings who want to attack that one. So it basically becomes a, a golden shackle. Where it's, it's both something that you want and it also enslaves you at the same time. So in that sense, yeah, I think it's a, a fantastic metaphor for that. There's also, you know, now we're getting into, now we have that established, now we're getting into the call out to the Book of Revelation, where you have the,
@malleusigthe whore of Babylon essentially. Or who has the, no, I'm sorry, the, the beast who has the, you know, the phrase "Horn of Babylon, Mother of Harlots, Mother of Abominations, "whatever on its forehead. And what does the beast have? The beast has seven heads with seven crowns, and the crowns represent the kings of the earth, right, who the beast has basically enslaved. And that maps onto both what we see in, in Tolkien and in what we're seeing in real life today.
@malleusigso that's, that I think would be my take on the ring.
@malleusigAnd that's before we get into the really
Ian MalcolmWhat's
@malleusigthat?
Ian MalcolmNo, it's really well, really well laid out and, and so, so that concept of, of central banking, what a, what a curious call out. And if you think about it, the ability for that to pervert, distort, or control just about any of these kingdoms, very, very appropriate, comparison there. Absolute unity, thank you for that, taking us down that little, little tour. That was, That was fantastic. And, and so, really quickly, so this idea of, of the first book, again, it's kind of setting the stage. We've got lots of interesting things that do take place. I find the, Mithril, kind of coat of arms or, or let's say, chainmail that, that he receives, he's got his sword that glows when the orcs are nearby.
Ian Malcolmyou know, all, all of these things, very, very curious little adventure and kind of little nods. The one that we gotta call
Ian Malcolmthe trilogy is this, I, I, I think it's the creature, what lies beneath, I think is the term, that they, they dug, the, the dwarves of all people, isn't it curious we come back to the dwarves and their mining, their inability to just know when to stop, to recognize when you've got a lot, right? And so instead they dug too deep beneath the mines of Moria, and as a result they unearthed this evil. That's where I was going, the Balrog. The Balrog. And so Your thoughts on what perhaps, if anything, that sign-signifies, or if it's perhaps just an interesting monster, is there a metaphor in what lies in the great deep that is of such terror that it even, if you remember, even Gandalf himself is, is horrified and doesn't even wanna go into the mines because he knows that it might be down there, right? Yeah.
@malleusigYeah, if I, if I had to, if I had to put, if I had to put my finger on it, I guess it, if the dwarves-- okay, so the dwarves are the race of, the race of beings that essentially love jewels and love mining, right? And, their women are-- and this is gonna sound kind-- their women are indistinguishable from the men, right? And I would say that kind of like It kinda like leads you to Ashkenazi Jews, basically, right? It's just like, 'cause I've-- and especially maybe Israelis, even though Israelis weren't a thing back then, but anyone who's met Israeli tourists,
@malleusigcan probably tell you that, Israeli women are vicious, man. Like, they are absolutely fucking vicious. Like, they may-- they may not look like them, but like, they are just some of the most- Hostile, like just inherently, even when they're pretending to be friendly. Very greedy.
Ian MalcolmVery greedy.
@malleusigWell, I'm not getting into greedy because like, greedy isn't really-- Like, yeah, they, they're kind of all greedy, that's just kind of their culture, but like the women in particular, like, they're just very, they're very man-like in the way they go about the world, right? and so, and if you make them angry or, or you make them angry or you like, you know, cross them, it's like you'll learn They will come after you. they'll do it, they'll do it in, in a way that is not gonna be able to trace back to them, but like they're the real gangsters, they really are.
@malleusigand so, and then the whole thing about being greedy for jewels and gold, kind of thing, and obviously, you know, goes back to them. So if we're going on that analogy, then I would probably say that it, it sounds very much like the, like what happened during the captivity in Babylon, where they, they took over, they did the same thing in Babylon that they did in every other empire they were in, where they basically, they started by farming out their, their daughters to the rulers so that they would, you know, they would, so Jews would be born into high positions and then took over the, the empire that way, right? They took over the city that way.
@malleusigbut then when they got into the secret societies, and, you know, the secret societies are, they're right in the Old Testament, like in the-- The Old Testament literally has instructions on how to start a secret society, so it's one of, probably the earliest document we have on secret societies. And when they got in, and they got in, infiltrated the Babylonian secret societies, that's when, you know, that's where they have the beginning of the Talmud and all of this kind of dark magic that I think, includes things- Things like summoning demons, right? summoning the other gods, right? And using them in addition to Yahweh for your purposes. And that's where my mind goes, is essentially where they, they may have bitten off more than they can chew and become, become enslaved to,
@malleusiga higher evil than they were ready for, is one, definitely one possibility in my mind.
Ian MalcolmYou know, it's a, it's a fascinating concept, and the reason that I wanted to bring that up, and I'm not sure if any of, some of the other speakers that have come up here would maybe wanna tap into this one, or, or Rabbi, if not, would, would love to throw it to you, because this is actually, it's essentially the conclusion to the first story, which is the Balrog dragging Gandalf down, and it's Gandalf the Grey, right? And what's curious about it is For those that walked out and hadn't read the books for the trilogy, or were unfamiliar with where it was gonna go, they probably thought that's the end of Gandalf, right? And then obviously the second film comes back as Gandalf the White and tells the story of how he was dragged down and ultimately vanquished the Balrog and that he has now returned. And the thing that's so curious about the return, and this is why, you know, I bring this up because of this idea that Tolkien said that this is a Christian story at its core. When he does come back, the thing that's so fascinating is that he both refers to himself as "that was me," so he makes reference that he was Gandalf, but by saying "was" is essentially something anew, right? It's essentially like he's been reborn, perhaps he is risen, as they would say in the Christian faith. And I'm kind of curious on how you read that, right? What, what's the significance there? And, and is it, is he dead? And this is a new version?